#16 - Lenny LeBlanc

Lenny LeBlanc's music career includes recording hit records, writing number one songs that others recorded and a spiritual transformation that lead him to walk away from it all. Years later he would co-write one of the most beloved songs of the church, "Above All". 

Transcript

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time the Lauderdale and this is a modern Southern gentleman show stories and conversations to lead you down the path of becoming the best version of yourself. This is a non core presentation of an interview they a few years ago with Lee Neela blocked. Lini has some fantastic storage, and you're gonna love them, because if you're a music fan, they stretch from from Leonard Skinner toe Hank Williams Jr to Christian music just the whole gamut. But Lini turned out to be one of the most generous people I've ever met. When we finished the interview, we were on his back porch is you'll hear which, by the way, you're going to hear some wind noise. It doesn't last long, so just please excuse it. It's really not too annoying. But anyway, we got finished with the interview, and there was another guy that I really wanted to try to get in touch with, and turns out he and Lenny were friends and without any prompting, let me just picked up the phone and quality and said, Hey, man, I'm gonna introduce you. This guy he'd like to interview you and I was able to, and it just really showed me a lot about what generosity is. And I've always appreciated We need for that and still love his music and still love hanging out. Ah, and listen to his stuff. So I hope you will dive in to this conversation with Lenny LeBlanc. I grew up in the church. I left the church for a long time, and when I came back to the church in the

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mid nineties, church music had changed dramatically, right? I mean, when I left the First Baptist Church of Athens, Alabama, I mean, I was the first guy I think to ever play guitar inside that church. And, uh so I don't know anything. And you did a record. Um, and one of the songs on it was called trader. Right? And I didn't know that church music like that existed. It really wasn't meant to be a church song, was it not? What was the meant to be's? Well, I just wrote it for my wife. Really? Did you intern? Did you ever intend to cut it? I did. I did. I actually cut it. And we're talking about Mac, Mac and Alley. Yeah, you Misko. He's a good buddy. of mine. And, uh, he actually co produced that whole CD with me while and then at the time he was produced in Sawyer Brown, right? And he gave a copy to Mark Miller, the lead singer, and it became one of their favorite CDs that they listened to on the bus. And Mark ended up cutting treat her right on Sawyer Brown became a number one country hit and really, yeah. And then he cut another song called Carpenter Son. That was on a video that Ricky Skaggs produce. It was just videos of country artists that you know made statements about their faith, right? And so I never imagined that get to songs cut by soy around from that record. That was not my intent. But that's just, you know, s and God's blessing, you know? You know, after I made the switch from pop music Teoh Christian music, you know, I lost everything financially. My career. I walked away from a big career. Yeah, and and I want to get there because that's the part of your story that most people don't know, I think. But let's let's go back. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Daytona Beach, was born in New England. I was actually born in Yankee, but I try to kind of keep that under hush. How quickly did you escape? Yankee Hood crossed over as soon as I became enlightened. You went almost this far away from New England and you could get only four years old. I had some young enlightment enlightment. I was raised in Daytona Beach, Florida. And that was where pretty much NASCAR was born. Yeah, you know, And so my dad would take us to the beach because they raced the cars on the beach. Right. And I remember those old stock car races. Those cars will be zooming by. You'd be probably 50 feet from the cars. So you literally saw him running on the beach? Oh, yes, yes. Just no. Not the big track or any of that literally on the beach. And I was at the at the first race in the big track. That's cool. Yeah. 1959. I think it waas. That's very cool. Wow. But you were still a young young one. It would have been nine years old. Okay. I was born in 51. Okay, so you grow up in Daytona Beach on and then, you know, as a teen, actually is a 10 year old boy. We went back Teoh, Massachusetts, where I was born. And I was at my aunt's house and I was in your basement and I looked around and there was an old piano up there against the wall and I started picking on that piano, OK? And I just became infatuated with I was just over overcome by and I just would I stay down there for, like, two hours? They didn't know where I was at. I was in that basement, just picking out songs just here or here. Just by here is Mary had a little lamb or just whatever, you know. Yeah. Twinkle, twinkle, little Star. Exactly. And so I just I just became. I just I was just smitten by when I got home. I asked my mom, Mom could have a piano can have organ. My mom was a waitress. My dad was a bag Boyd MP, and we didn't have any extra money for anything. You barely got by in the weird. An auction one night. They like to go the auction on Friday nights and there was a little court organ about 20 inches long. Had about 2020 keys on it, and it was $10. And I just knew they were gonna behind that organ and they didn't. And I would lay in bed and cry at night, was crushed for an organ I would cry for in order to finally, you know, I realized I wouldn't going to get it. And the desire just sort of left me, I guess momentarily. And then you get interested in girls and surfing was a big thing. I love surfing. Yeah, When I was 14 I started surfing and then at 15 years old, a friend of mine that I went to high school with. He had a car, and we stopped by his house one afternoon after the getting home from the beach, and his little brother and several of his little friends were sitting around the living and they're playing songs on the radio that three electric guitars and they looked at my body. And I said, Hey, why don't you guys come over here and sing E? I thought saying my buddy was really shot. I knew he wouldn't do it. So I just went over there on a dare and I picked up the sheet music. It was songs from the radio 1965 and one was a house of the rising sun. Oh, yeah, I came over the other song Animals Tune or something. I start singing and they looked at me really funny and they said, Wow, you sound really good. I said, Really, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. And they said, Yeah, let's put a band together and enter the talent show at school It was junior high, you know, I said, Talent show. You think I've got town? They said, Yeah, yeah, so okay, and you really know you could sing up to that role Didn't really did. They did not know. Okay, And that's probably like any other kid saying with radio, Come on orbit. And so we're in the cafeteria and it was about 300 people. Their parents and I was scared to death. I was terrified. I've never been in front of anybody doing anything, and I literally had my hands in my pockets in my back to the audience. I would not even face the people kind of channeling your name or something. I sang to the Band Way wanted. We won the talent show, Uh, and then they got really excited. They said, You need to get a base And I said, What's the base? It's the big one with more strings, you know? So I went down the acres drugstore and got a job washing dishes, and I saved $150 bought a fender bass while list. You bought a good one? Yes. Yeah. Bought offender P bass. And, uh, you know, I learned from them little things I learned from other bass players. Never had any music lessons, Couldn't read a note of music. If you put a gun to my head, just all learn from others and steal today. You don't today. Okay, I understand some theory, but I don't read music, okay? And so then, about two years later, through various other bands, I was making a living at it, playing in the clubs in the weekend. That's Ah, that's a made for TV movie kind of story. I gotta literally get on the fast track. And we're talking about Pete calls on my lifelong friends. Pete was in a band called Hourglass, which was Duane and Gregg Allman, who also grew up in Daytona Beach. I didn't know that that's where they grew up. They spent a lot of their years of later years after they moved from Nashville. They were in military school. They went to high school in Daytona Beach, Seabreeze High School. And so they were. They had. They were in a band called The Hourglass added to Records on Liberty Label in California. And Pete was the bass player for that band. Even though Pete was a guitar player, he played bass for that band. He was like Dwayne's protege. Wow, a pretty good guy to be learning from. Yeah, for real. And so when that band broke up in Twain and Greg, we're putting the Allman Brothers together up in Jacksonville, taking bets on the other guys. They would. Dwayne would come home on the weekends and feet, and I had formed a little blues band. We played in the ocean, Pierre, Close it Teen Club that closed 12 and Dwayne would come in and we jam like, two hours. Oh, my God. Playing with Duane Allman? Yeah, he would. He would play with us? No, my different different clubs. He would come in and sit in. And when that guy walked on stage, you played 10 times. Your your level of playing just hey, brought everybody up to his level. Well, not to his level. But you could get close. You could get right. Uh, when he walked into the room, he had such a charisma. Even though he's a short guy, was, like, 58 or 59 Okay. And probably wait 100 £30 which is probably what I way back then 15 or 16. But just to play with this guy was just we don't. When he walked into a room, he had so much charisma that every eye, he was just one of the great losses of humanity is losing him as early as we did. And a great not only a great musician and guitar player, but a great leader. Was he really? Yes. Yeah, it just, uh So you have brothers or sisters? Had two brothers one older than me, 18 months older than me. And he's he's an artist, a wood artisan, Okay, was incredibly talented. And then I have a younger brother that's still in Daytona. That's thinking about moving up here. Okay? He's 11 years younger than me. Alright, 11 while So you're in Daytona Beach and suddenly you find yourself on the fast track and you're playing with Duane Allman. And how do you make the jump from from Daytona Beach to Muscle Shoals? Because I think what people don't know about you, especially people who are under 45 is that in the heyday of the music scene in Muscle Shoals with the mushrooms, sound and fame records and all of that, you were right in the middle of that playing, singing, all of that stuff. How did you How did you get from Daytona? Beats to Muscle Shoals? Well, 15 and 16 and then through the end of high school, I knew exactly what I want to do. I want to play on records. I want to be famous. I wanted to make you know I wanted to tour and all those amazing things that get to do when you're successful. Musician. And so I moved from Daytona, got an offer from a band in Cincinnati. They had a regional record deal. I went up there and played for a couple of years and got bored with that. And then Greg, after Dwayne had died Greg home and continued on with the band and they were in Cincinnati doing a show, and I went on and hung out with Greg after the show. Okay, we hung out for a couple hours and you've just done his solo record laid back. He said, Man, you did. Why don't you just moved to making you could be my bass player on the road. I thought, This is great. So my first wife at the time, she was an LP and nurse, and so we moved, had a young baby and we moved to Macon. She got a job at the hospital and I was Mr Mom at home, you know, with the baby. And then Greg would come over and get me at night and we'd go the studio and jam or go out to eat or whatever. And you know, this went on for like, three months, and he was like, no hurry to get a road band together When he said, I got to make some money, though. Help a brother out and I got to do something I can't. I can't sit at home and like, because I'm not a sitting home, you know, do nothing. Person. And so I called Pete, who had, who had since moved to muscle shows, okay, and started doing studio work because Wayne was here before we put the Allman Brothers together. He was here for a short time and played on yeah, Wilson pickets record And did that skaggs on me. A dime record and different ones. And he did. He and Wilson Pickett did that cover of Hey, Jude. Yeah, but just doing his thing. You want to be a studio player. And so I think he made the connection for Pete to come okay and start doing sessions. So Pete was already established here. I called. Peter said, You think there's anything for me up there? He said, yeah, I think I think there's some opportunity for you up here. So we came up for a week and went back and got our stuff and moved up with actually lived with Pete for six months. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And it was It was a while before anybody would use me on a session because nobody wants to take a chance on you on their recording session because they don't know if you can handle the pressure. If you can. Really actually come up with you can deliver. You know, where you playing bass or guitar at the time was playing bass, Also playing guitar Because I really wanted to be a songwriter, right? An artist. And so I had gotten a little gig up the state line because the county was drivin, Yeah, so they only work for a musician was at the Tennessee State line. It's little clubs, you know. So I got a job up there working, and my wife was she worked for a veterinarian, so we were barely squeaking by, you know, and and then one night, a guy a guy David Johnson called me for a session. Look, a demo session on a writer. And, um, I got that session and I guess I did well and I started getting calls to do demos. And then from there I started getting calls to do master session even, you know, and then people found that I could sing and I started singing background and all these huge records, and I was like, Oh, my Gosh, this is, like, so incredible. They're actually paying me to do this. You know, it's funny that you're playing bass at a time when there was a pretty other well known bass player in town named Dave Hood. Yeah, but did see David and all the guys that muscle sound. They were so locked into doing all their own stuff that they, David, didn't have time to do outside sessions. So they were just They were together as a group of guys like he were able to come in and pick up some work, and they were booked every week. See with another art with major artists living week. So David didn't have any time to do outside sessions like a fame or wishbone or any other studios, and Bob Rae was here. It's at the same time, and Bob is a much better Bass player than I am. But he had moved toe Atlanta, but he would still come up processions. So it was really David myself and Bob, while worth three bass players, kind of primary first call sort of players that ran town and that lasted for me for about two years until I started making the switch because I started writing and, um, you can still continue to do background sessions. But I wrote three songs. I think Pete Co wrote a few of them with me, and we played them for Jerry Wexler, who was co founder of Atlantic Records and was bringing all the acts to Muscle Shoals sound. Yeah, he's a really a prominent night. You hear over and over again when you talk about Muscle Shoals. He was one of the main people, probably the main person him and Tom Dowd, that started bringing artists here. And so Pete, you know, had a relationship with Jerry through playing all the sessions that it must have felt sounds. So Pete played my demo for Jerry in. Two weeks later, I had a solo record deal in Atlantic Records, so it doesn't happen anymore. Now hear stories like that, and but you just the music business has. Yeah, I was just totally different. It seems like it's changed a lot, but yeah, that's how it happened for me on that first. So did you and Pete play together on the first record? He actually produced the first record and play guitar on it but he wasn't singing a whole lot. It wasn't the duo that that LeBlanc in car had been. When did that start that happened? That happened after that. My first solo record. Because Messina logs of seeing were really hot then. And there was a few other Dios and the record company it was. Their idea was that you had to do the duo record because Pete was also signed to Atlantic Records as, ah, guitar player solo artist. Okay, he was doing like Larry Carlton Kind of Blues. The knife aged two great records. One a while. And then I played bass on in. Chuck Lavelle, keyboard player from Lehman Brothers. Played on it, too. It's called not a word on it, and those two records he did were really great. And so it was their idea of team us up, you know? So Pete was a producer guitar player, saying some backgrounds wrote some songs, okay? And so that's when we had the big hit falling from that record. Now the gel coat write the song was no. Ah co wrote that with any street sick. Okay, who died a few years ago? Yeah, So irritable writer. But locking. Chlor didn't last long because Pete did not want to be that right? Exactly. He wanted to go back to producing and just play. You want to go back to producing and playing out? But that was a dilemma for me because he was here all of a sudden, Where this big duo having all the success and Pete decides he wants to stay home, which is great, but that where that leaves me as I'm doing all the TV interviews, you know, Midnight special on all the TV specials without him. And they're, like, asking me Well, whose car they're looking at? All the other guys. You know, I had to create this story, you know? You know, pizza. He's a creative guy. And, you know, which is the truth. You know, I just told the truth. He just didn't really like, like going on the road, you know? So So where you were you touring much? Oh, yeah. At the time, we were actually managed by Peter Rudge and he managed stones Letter swell and 38 special and us while. And so we got on the Skinner tour. Wow on the plane. Went down, were on the tour on that tour, We were the opening act. It started. Tour started in Statesboro, Georgia, at a university. We went to the Miami sported Torrey UM, 18,000. Cedar went to the Tampa Bay Civic Center. It was their first big headline tour Tampa Bay Civic Center, a Lakeland Civic Center than Pete and I split up for a day. We went to Daytona Beach or Hometown Headline a concert there they went to North or South Carolina, can't remember and then the next day, two days later were supposed to meet back up in that room. And we had 30 something dates. Wow! Ended up in New York. It's some big, uh, place in New York palladium or somewhere and on the way to Baton Rouge for the plane crashed. Oh, my gosh. So we were in the car all day. Listen, Teoh tapes and writing songs, and we didn't even know till we get to the hotel that 12 hours before the plane and crashed, we got to the hotel like 11 at night. We had, like, 60 messages phone Mrs where families were calling the hotel. Yeah, so this is obviously well before cell phones and you weren't listening. The radio, they were doing your own. So the guys way went back a long way with Skinner, and we knew them from years ago. I remember playing in Atlanta from that with that band in Cincinnati that they were playing the same clubs. You know about that time, so I never They were didn't know him well, but we know him well enough, Pete. New and better than I did. And they had asked me and Pete to fly with him because the dates were like 500 miles apart. We don't have to drive all night just to get to the next city. Yeah, that's a big jump tomorrow. Two seats left on the plane. They said, What? You just fly with us? I said, with that, we just thought the band would feel really bad if we were flying and they had to drive, you know? So we just Oh, we elected. Not so. It wasn't the whole band. That's right, because the whole band wasn't on the plane, right? Know their band was on the plane, but they had two seats open. They had 28. I think 26 people on their tour. Okay, roadies and man. You know, whatever it was, the travel in Cordoba was traveling. Flying service. So here you are. When you get there and you guys hear that the plane is going down. While we were devastated because other your buddies and but not only your buddies. I mean, this was your liberty, your career, you know, suddenly had nothing. What happened? I mean, well, we just kind of had to regroup. And that was what was where Pete made a decision. He had been on those five days and with all that happened, and it just kind of was just just kind of was the and straw that broke the camel's back for he wants. He just said, I don't wanna be on the road. This Yeah, which I totally understood. You know, anymore. He was satisfied to produce and be a studio. Exactly. And that's where he that's where he really shined. Okay, You know, that was where his strength waas. But what does let me do it? That ball. What do you do when he has toe? Skinner's going down. That tours Done. Your partner says, Hey, man, I'm just not feeling this road thing? Yep. So our manager scrambled. He was a big deal in the industry. So he scrambled. He got a song, I think we jumped about six tours and about 2.5 months. We did 56 shows in 2.5, just opening for different artist. We drove almost 6000 miles. We were We were with way started out, I think with oh, David Carry Dean, which was a total Mitch match. The kung fu guy. Yeah, and never total mismatch. We never needed music. We did Taj Mahal weekend with him in Boston. We did Jake Isles in about 34 days. Well, there's a name. I hadn't heard it alone. Get about five days journey while one date with foreigner. Then we got on the England Dan and John Ford Coley tour. They were label mates at Big Tree Atlantic with us and, uh gosh, several other journey while. Yeah, but we're on just all these different tours, and, uh, I remember we drive like like I said, we're in rental cars before buses. So what? Even on a band bus? Oh, no. We had to bondable cars. We had what we call him the two limos. One was a smoking limo, Non smoking limit. The singer has got to be in the non smoking. And I did not smoke cigarettes. And so, you know, we're getting We couldn't even stay to hear the main act. We have to do our share our shar set. We're getting in the car and drive all night until six or seven. In the morning. We check into the hotel, sleep a little bit. Get up, go. They've been You eat, do sound check. Do the show. Get back in the car. We did this. We do this flight nine nights in a row. That's what's called a grind. Yeah, it's a grind. And then, you know the management officer Constant. You got three days off much of next gig 1500 miles away. Oh, wait. Guard. We started organ and we end up in Chicago and we would drive 500 miles a day. Would stop like Yellowstone, beat out 10 minutes, take a picture, get back in the car and drive. Did it seem odd to you? Oh, it was It was brutal. I you know, I was 26 27 years old When I got off that tour, I went to Daytona Beach and stayed at my mother's house for six weeks because you were still married. Now I've been divorced. Okay? But she still had a child. Yes, and my child was in Daytona. OK, so you go back to Daytona when that's over, just to recuperate. Honestly, my child. And, you know, family and stuff. Oh, my gosh. It was horrible. Yeah. So then we did another record, and there really wasn't a little blocking car. And but the record label wanted another Labonte car record and said, Well, there's no heart. So they said, Well, just doing the blocking car band record. What is that? Okay. Okay. So raise the record label stuff. We do the record. And it's kind of like a two headed monster is It was Gary Baker was my bass player. We moved him here, who went on to write songs like I swear. Wow. And I'm already there. Yeah, star. Yeah. Great writer. Good. Good friend. Still, And, uh, So Gary was writing songs with one of the piano players, Okay, but their songs were, like, totally different than mine, you know, they were more pop kind of talking hits kind of police kind of thing. And mine was more pop R and B. Um, it was touching country in it. And so the two styles didn't mix and selling two headed monster I call Atlantic. I said, You know, you can put their name on it. Er, Pete's name on it Don't put my name on it. Really? Yeah, and and they said, OK, well, let's listen to it for a week and moved aside. So they ended up not doing it and they did their own solo record and I did a solo record and and then so that was That was the last record I did with Pete. And we split up contractually and then, um, a couple years later, Actually, actually, I couldn't get out of my record deal because Atlantic it wasn't up yet. And I just decided it wasn't the direction I wanted to go. And ah, so they were wanting to sell my contract. They put you in suspension. Okay? You can't record innocent. Someone else buys your record. Your record deal away from them. So I went two years I couldn't do anything, couldn't work, didn't do anything. Yeah. Couldn't You Couldn't over anything I could. I could tour. But, you know, I didn't have a band and didn't have a booking agent. I would do sessions and whatever I could, you know, and then had a smuggler friend. It had been back from Vietnam. He was smuggling drugs. What a perfectly rocket rolling. Does it sound like a rock n roll movie? Don't actually was signed. I was signed to Pete and Pete had the record deal through Atlantic, so everything had to go through p. Okay, a guy was the way it worked back then. And so I called Pete one day, and I said, Pete, would you take 10 grand from both my contracts? And he said, Yeah. So I said, Awesome. And I appreciate it. And so I went to my buddy and he said, Give me 10 grand in a paper bag. Yeah, I had a head papers drawn up Pete Sinem and we walked away both that both happy and and the next week I went to Barry Beckett. It must feel sound. And I had a record deal Solo record, deal, capital. While they had MSs capital, they had a subsidiary through Muscle Shoals sound. Yeah, and it was myself. Leave on him. W Clinton. Yeah. And one other artists. I can wrestle Smith from. Look, amazing rhythm bases. They were We were the four artists leave on him. Oh, gosh. Just the best. What a Jew, man. Just American treasure right there. I mean, gone too soon. And I think people don't understand. I think too many people again under 35. You don't really have an appreciation for that guy. So true. So So you're signed there. So you're back here after a year, have, ah to your borrowed $10,000 from Got an advanced, questionable circumstances without an adventure. You got an advance from the record company and paid my friend back two weeks later. And you were glad that $1 money to a drug dealer was about to say that there are a lot of I don't care how good of a friend who used to be Like most dope dealers. You don't You don't want to get behind head partners. That's a good point. He had far never a solo deal, right and so made the solo record. Had a few charts singles and then something really profound happened. Okay, The same drug dealer that loan me the money called me one night after a tour had been on and he said, Lenny E got saved and going to heaven, and I want you to be there with near you saved. Did you even know what that meant? You had no religious background growing up, raised Catholic, went to Catholic school. And, um, you know, in seventh grade we went to public school and never went back to the church. But I knew about a lot about Catholic church in their doctor, but not a lot somewhat. You know what they teach in school? Sure. I didn't know anything about, like, personally knowing God and communicate with him was always through a priest. There's no director of always into God. Yeah. Yeah. There was all the intermediate air. Yeah, and my friend, I had no idea what saved even that good. And I went cause just when things were going good, everything was looking good for my career. I had another record in under contract for Capital was writing songs for that, but something in his boys just really struck me. I knew something profound happened. There was some sincerity there that she could pick up. I just rock me to the core When he said that while even though I didn't know what it meant, I knew something drastic. It happened to him. So he said, I want to send you a few books and I said, OK, whatever. So they sent me a Bible, and he sent me this little book. It was It was about the end times in the world according to look revelations and not I start really, like right, Planet Earth. Something like that wouldn't exact book. Yeah, that was a big thing back in the day. And so I read, start reading the scriptures, and, uh, God just begin to reveal himself to me through the Bible. And I began to ask questions, And for a month, I wrestled with God. Okay. What's this going to mean to me? Well, for me, it was just gonna mean from my career. What my what is this? Is this really are you really God? And I'm telling you, it was like Holy Spirit came into my home for, like, a month, day after day, and it was like warm water washing over me. And it was I was born again right there at my house. People you hear that turned born again, right? That's what it was like for me. It was like my spiritual side of me was like awakened while and I understood that God was riel. And I understood I needed him in my life with anything more than my next breath. And then until my life was, you know, surrendered to him that nothing was gonna work out. I thought, Well, if I could just get that next hit record If I could just skip the I could just find the right person to share it with and then anything to be filled in. My, you know, my career was my God. It was everything to me in six years before I left my family for it. I was so eaten up with myself, even though I was well respected as a musician around town and all that that was just so shallow, you know, that wasn't really who I waas and God's just started peeling back the layers. Yeah, because you've been running in some pretty Haiti circles from the music business Yeah, somewhat. You know, But I started seeing myself for who I really was and what my needs were. My real true need was God. And so I surrendered my heart to the Lord right there in my house. I didn't know how to pray. I didn't know how to come to God. I didn't know what to do. But that other little book he sent me had a prayer after every chapter, you know, surrender your heart to God by him in. And so I read that little prayer after every chapter. A while. I think I got saved about 20 times a week about Tony. 20 chapters in that book depends on your theological disposition, you know. But I didn't know what. It doesn't matter. No, it doesn't matter. You know, That's the cool thing about it. And, you know, I thought, Well, I was waiting for, like, a light to come into my room or, like, an angel appear or something. You know, I didn't know what to expect. You see movies, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So But I'm so glad it happened to me that way because I didn't have this, like, preacher from this Church. Tell me you got to do it this way. You do it this way. I was, like, so pure and so unadulterated. It was just me and God and it was so real, because I think that's the thing about it. When it's not this lightning flash moment. Are the skies parting in the Sunbeam coming down? I think it's actually more real when it's not that exactly. And so you know, I would start how we walk out on the porch and the trees were just looks. They would look greener, so these trees have never been disagreed. You know, things like that heart begin to change about things. I began to think different. Okay, my friends would come over my song writing bodies and musicians in a city. What's going on with you? I wouldn't say a word. They could just see it in my face and said, What's happened to you? Because you were still in the music scene? Oh, yeah, I was still signing my record deal, and I was still trying to write those songs. I'd start start writing a pop song, started out to be a love song and get to the course and be about Jesus. Wow. And I thought, Oh, my gosh. Capital is not gonna want these. Jesus on. I was right. They did. But you know, e I felt it was really weird. I could I could have totally gone on and been a pop artist. I've been a believer. Gonna knew that. But I felt gone, drawing me away to something else. Really? Yes. It was so strong, but it wasn't. You didn't walk away from the pop music business because she thought it interfered with your faith. It just wasn't part of God's plan for Lini. I lost all desire for it. I lost all desire to do pop music. I wonder right about was this guy that changed my life? It was not for the money. There was no money and Christian music. When I walked away from that capital record deal, I lost every bit of my income. I was a writer. It must feel sound. I was also signed the record label. What year was it? This was 81. Okay, so I lost everything. Total loss of income. And then capital did what Atlantic did. They put me in suspension, so I couldn't recorded a Christian record until the labels, they wanted $30,000 for my contract or it was or until it expired. No, because they record label. They sign you to usually A to A to a record deal, and you do one record with them. Then they've got an option to pick up the net. The 2nd 1 is their option, All right. Picked up the option. So it wasn't going to go away until you either recorded that second record. Exactly. Were paid. The 30 grand were had another label pay. It can be out of the contract, alright. And something went for two years. And, you know, I was writing songs. I was I build furniture, built all this stuff that you see, And so So you're a carpenter? Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of a passion just to do do that. Had you always been doing the energy learned along the way, I was going to do it. When I first moved to Muscle Shoals, I started building stuff in my front porch in the apartment. You said your brother is an artist and we and we were We were doing it. Really? He was in Daytona and I was here. We didn't really have any contact as far as that goes, OK, But we just sort of both took that path. He did it for a living. Oh, how funny. And I did it for just kind of You just enjoyed it. Yeah, Another avenue of created creativity, you know, And And I've been commissioned to do a few things by people, but I never had time to really devote to it. But I did. During that two years, I started doing staying glass, and I did some church stained glass jobs and different things and just doing whatever you had to see. Oh, I would say, Yeah, man, I need to build a deck, and you help me build it. You know, just whatever workshop or whatever. And we're work. It works work. And I loved hard labor. I've never been a afraid of manual labor. I've always jumped in there and you know, this whole house pretty nice. Did you Really? Yeah. I mean, build a friend of mine. Wow. I worked here 18 days, 18 months, every day. That's amazing. Yeah, and so, you know I love doing that, but I did that for a couple of years in then the Christian labels want to sign me, you know, because they knew I was to pop music. And I haven't actually sung on Amy Grants record of 1st 1 Did you? Really? I Am I talking too much? No. I want you to talk all you want to, okay? And theories about you. Yeah. And then, um yeah, Amy Grant did her first record. She was 17 years old, and Marie Thomason, who was a singer from Mississippi, had moved up here. And I guess she was friends with Amy's family and maybe a me too. And she asked me to do it, and I just did it as a favor for Marie. Where did did the cut of the National or down Nashville? Yeah. And I was not a believer. Says a year before, I became a believer a while, but I look back now and I remember, you know, singing on those songs. They were, like, different. Remember Gashi songs about God, but they sound like pop songs, so I can't bakkie pop. They're really cool songs. And I looked back, and I know that those were probably seeds that were planted in my life. Even airport came to Christ. You just look back and you see stuff. Well, that parable about you. Do you really think about it at the time? But then you look back. You look at it in perspective. You see God's hand all along the way, you know, right? Relationships and that sort of thing. And so, yeah, And then I began meeting people in Christian music, and nobody could afford $30,000. Even the biggest label cause Christian music was really Christian with music was barely even on the radar screen. Contemporary Christian music, okay, was accepted in big genre, but not contemporary Christian music. Yeah, and so, yeah, the most they were spending on their best artists was 25,000 to make a record. And they're willing to spend 32 by my contract and then another 25 to make a record, and they just go, Wow, it could not afford it. So after two years, Capital realized that no one could afford to buy me out. No one was gonna buy me out, So they put me They gave me a deal and out to where? If I sold a bunch of records on my Christian record deal that they would get a 5%. But I'm kind of royal to get something royalty, which I never sold a lot of records. So that sort of went away. Thank God. And, uh, yeah, And then I started meeting people. And, you know, we struggled for for five or six years and jibber have in the middle of that struggle did you ever either a regret walking away or be? Did you ever drive by Muscle Shoals sound or by Fame studio and think, man, all this other struggle could go away. All I got to do is walk in the door and and we don't have to struggle anymore. Oh, you don't know Many times I had that conversation, my mind. But you know, it was really cool is all along the way. Guys around town would ask me to come to sessions and I do background vocal sessions, you know? But I couldn't make a living just that that it wasn't enough of it. But remember distinctly one time after about being a Christian for about a year, some fellow background singers and songwriters, friends of my neighbor Aldrich and Cindy Richardson and getting saved too. And we were kind of like the background vocal duo. Okay, three or rather did a lot of the sessions. And so we got hired to do a Clarence Carter session. Oh, wow. How about that? This is this is how we were going to do that. There's a funny story. Clearance could get pretty vulgar. And his lyrics? Yeah, a little bit of it. It's So you had this song, you know, we're 23 songs into the session. We'd sung a lot of clearances records, so we knew Clarence, you know, And the title of the song is, Why don't I stay here and take this? You hear the word for crap? Yeah. Why don't I stay here and take this blank from you? And I can see just Cindy Neighbor. They were just sweat because they have become believers recently. They're, like, sweating like, and they're looking at me like you're gonna be the one to tell. We go saying that. Oh, my God. So I just I just stayed calm and we rolled by the song a few more times and just kind of looking lyrics. I said clearance. So I got a great out here. I said, why don't we saying why do I stay here and then you finish at the line? So why do you last day here? Something like that. I hear whatever you think about it and the heat that he didn't say he went along without any idea provided away. So funny. But just the look on their faces was priceless. Cindy, Dave. Hilarious. So you're you're part of this beginnings of contemporary Christian music, right? I mean, this is the time. I guess Michael W. Smith is just starting toe toe, do some stuff. And for people who didn't grow up in the church, Or maybe or not in evangelical circles the way we are here in the Bible Belt, their listing This you got to know that there has been a thing going on in the church world since I guess the late eighties early nineties called the Music Wars. Yeah, way called the Worship Wars worship wars. When we call them become Just call the choir over the music in the war room. Seems like when people fight and churches over stuff, it's usually over the music, and it's so sad, you know? Well, it is because what it's turned out to be, or or this is just my take on it, Lenny, After having done this for a long time and having been through a few of these wars, it's not a music war. It's a generational. You're right because we don't know that we've ever seen in history. Two generations clash as violently and quickly as the music calls toe happen because you think about it again. I grew up in the late seventies and I can remember bringing my acoustic guitar and Andi. I had to sit behind the piano and they barely mike my guitar to play. And then just so that was to say, That's 1980 with, just 10 years later, which is really not a long time. I mean, there's drum kits. And there's all this stuff coming out in Michael W. Smith and your music and a bunch of music is coming out. So you're in the in the middle of all of that, right? Yeah. When did you start leading worship in a church? In the well of all this? I got saved in 81 then we started going to this tiny church and we went there about a year and I was just playing piano for them. They did all hymns and was my wife's uncle that pastored it. And we just wanted Teoh something a little more relevant for us as young people. So we left and went to another church. There wasn't a relevant church for our age that then you know ahead and come up with those, you know. And so we went to a church and they were singing songs about God. They were singing, you know, hymns, which I love. I love some of the rooms were just awesome. The great theology and just great depth of theology and those humans, and they just they speak volumes to your soul. And, uh so but But there was no music there, all the other music beside the hymns. I couldn't picture of my friends. I was 31. I couldn't picture inviting my friends and then coming in, not thinking it was weird. Absolutely, And so I just had this burning desire write songs that would relate to my generation, and that's where my passion for worship began. While I would go to the church at night cause that this big grand piano and we moved ahead on that here in the highway and build a bigger building. And so the pastor gave me a key to the church, would come out, and I'd write these songs. Wow! And that's where that's where my worship riding started was just out of need and desire from my local church to start singing songs. Justice is a service to your local church and your non believing friends, right? I think you were. And I was making records at the same time, making Christian records. And the funny thing was, is, you know, in pop music they would never do something like this like one of my songs. It was gonna be a single on the radio and so it had this little guitar riff. It was like four bars long. I think it was not even really a solo. It's sort of a signature line kind of deal and the radio promotions Guy label said, and I'm getting a lot of pushback from DJs on this on this song, so they want you to cut this guitar part in half because it's like the calm No, because electric guitar was like offensive. This isn't the Thistle like Christian Muse. 86 named Christian stations were getting pushed back about. Okay, I got some of the older guys were, like, pushing back on it. And I had to edit four bars, two bars out of that solo sex while is like, you just didn't hear guitar solos on Kristen and Christian either. Well, I mean, you didn't, so we fight fight wars like that and just Oh, my gosh. Bringing in a set of drums, the churches like, Oh, my gosh. You know, e. I thought people were gonna have a heart attack. They wanted to set the drum kit on fire. Yeah, but you know what's really neat about that is we really come full circle in a lot of ways. I can't speak for a lot of the main denominational churches, but for the non denominational churches that, like the one on a part of I mean, I'm 63 my generation grew up listening to the Stones to the Beatles were not offended by volume. Way went to cause turn a joke. Waited by volume, our concerts for like 10 times louder than once we got. That's why have escaped here anymore. But so there's a difference and we're not offended by loud music. And so were ableto discomforted by and we grew up in the sixties where we understand change and we're more open. I'm Maura. I'm totally open toe what's going on today in church music because I see what an impact it's making on young people. Where do you think church music is going? Um, up, I think when you when you really study a lot of the new songs like Hill Songs, Elevation Church, Bethel, you really see a depth and a lot of those, Absolutely. They're so simple. But they're so deep. Yeah, and I think that's where it's getting back to Yeah, and you know, the music of musical style in the frame. It's It's ah, frame. Dune is obviously going to change. Styles change, but but worship is not a style know which. No, it's a lifestyle. And so I think music is art and it's always gonna change. But the message is gonna stay the same, and I think what we're seeing is we're seeing a a, um, the resurgence of the message just coming home with the message. I think so, too. But my oldest daughter is 25 and mayor and lives in Birmingham, and they go to a church called Redeemer. And and as I've been watching, I've been out of church work for six years. But right as I was getting out and now following own, I'm finding the same thing that the lyric has some get theology. And there there, re capturing the essence of old hymns. The great theology of the old hymns, Yes, but what I finally have discovered is in the church wars. It really had nothing to do with the lyric. It had everything to do with the melody and the style of music that was used. And if you go back all the way back to the founding of our country, this war's been going on since then forever for the first church. Back then, the the controversy was they were going to use musical accompaniment. They were going to some high ah, pipe organ, and they were like, You can't do that. It's got to be a cappella. Whatever. And the hymns were written from barroom melodies. Oh, I mean Amazing Grace or was it how great their one of was an old Irish drinking song, The melody line from it and you're seeing. But I'm glad to see some more depth coming because I think there for a while it got a little skimpy in terms of depth of the lyrics. But that was just part of the process, part of the transition that had to happen. But we're seeing it running back, and you're also seeing the musical death happened, I think, concurrent with more depth in teaching. Yes, I think we're starting to Seymour. That happened, which I think is great on all levels. But I'm really excited to see all of that happened. I'm excited to say songwriters that that also say that and want to do that. It just saddens me. It always made me sad when I went through one that there had to be a war of any kind in the church, and that's really sad. I mean, I finally told somebody in the church I was serving a one time I said, You got to understand something about me. There's very few things I'm gonna fight over. Yeah, I mean, the deity of Christ. The virgin birth and the authenticity and the inerrancy of Scripture. All those things. I'll fight over us, too. But I won't suffer a paper cut over some of the stuff that you guys want to fight about. And you know, the world wants so badly to see an authentic Jesus in an authentic church. Wow, that may be the best thing you said so far because some people would have us believe that the church that the world doesn't want to see that when in fact, yet they dio Yeah, I think they do that. I think what they want to see is authenticity. You You said something earlier that after your conversion and you were still hanging around with your song writing buddies and you're playing buddies, that you didn't say anything, but they knew something had changed. And I think it's because authenticity is invisible and it's attractive, and people are just mesmerized by because we don't see much of it anymore. You're asking me earlier about, you know, after getting a start, a Christian music viral regretted, you know, making that decision, leaving that career. I've never really regretted making the decision to follow Christ, but I always thought Well, what? You know what if I kept doing this kind of on the side and kept doing pop music and, you know, I looked it looked at Look at Mac and all my other buddies that we have a huge success, and I think I should have been the right with him, you know? Yeah. And I started memorizing the L a X Airport. One time I had been doing something out in California and I started had I was having a pity party because I saw this guy with a rock star. I got what I could do that, you know. But it lasted about 10 minutes in God's thank me. So, yeah, look what I've done for you, you know, and that. But then, I mean, probably a year later is when I did Those wrote those songs and Mac played that record for Sawyer Brown. And he also played another one of my songs for Ricky Skaggs and had that cut. It was like I didn't even try. I didn't even ask Mac to play the songs for I've never asked anybody to play my songs for anybody really to get him recorded. Never I never pitched above all to Michael W. Smith. Really? He found it on a compilation CD. I have never been able to pick something even above all, you did not pitch, did not pitch this one of the got to be in the top 10 worship song still today. And so it was almost like God was saying Yes. See? See what I can do and you take your hands off of it. Well, I think you're live. You're a living example of one of my favorite things, and and the same goes like this. God's no was not rejection its protection. You don't know what God was protecting you from. That's right. Had you been in there, uh, enemy and I mean, we look at where you're living. I think God took care of you pretty well. Gosh, more, Much more than I deserve, you know. And And you have this unusual compilation. Now you lead worship in a church. But you're not the primary worship later. From what I can tell. Yeah, I stepped down two years ago. I'm actually on staff. I'll have any responsibility. What a beautiful thing. What a beautiful day. And I get one of those gigs on the church staff were. All I do is like flying in teeth. That'd be awesome. Really? No staff meetings. You know, the staff meeting on Tuesday of it. I didn't go yesterday. I've been in the moment back when I was in Africa. My records have done really well overseas, had they. Really? Yes. So if I go to Africa, I'll get get recognizing the airports. And do you really That's pretty funny you want? I mean, like, you walk through the Lawrence and nobody knows you go there just cause I'm the only white guy within black people my songs and a friend of mine, Don Mohan, I know that name Don is like overseas in Asia, Africa. He's like, we go over there, you can come out of his hotel like the Beatles, and nobody even knows of any u s. You know, it was like, Yeah, we were in Kenya and we went on the Tonight show this in Kenya. It's like the Tonight show and had their highest rating. Everyone show, you know, things like this so bizarre, bizarre. But it's like crazy, you know? I think our records and our songs in particular really were instrumental in in leading Africa to worship. Well, you above all came out winded. Michael, don't be cut that. I actually cut it in 99 on my CD for integrity called above. All right. And then they a few years later, they put it on a compilation. They were always putting 10 0 yeah, that was the big thing. Which is probably the first time I heard it. Yeah, and they put it on a compilation. And Michael B. Smith had started his own church in Franklin, Tenn. Yeah, great church today was pastoring on both leading worship, So he has always looking for songs. And so I guess he found it on that compilation. And then first time I knew that he had sung. It was when George Bush had his first inauguration. Yeah, they do that Inaugural prayer services at the National Cathedral in Washington, D. C. And I guess my wife had been watching. It was a Sunday morning, and I went to the store to get milk early that morning and I was coming home, and I noticed the garage door was like opening for me, and my daughter was 12 years old and she was like waving me into the house. He's singing your song, He's singing yours and you know any of that You don't know what's gonna happen. I said, Who's singing? What song said Michael W. Smith. Just saying Above all and there is at the National Cathedral I saw it a couple days later. Somebody taped it finally. Oh my gosh, Lady walked out with a piece of paper. They didn't even really know the song. Well, yet he put the piece of paper up. That's the only song is saying. They actually missed the words up in one part, did you? Yeah, but it was like something moving because he just him on the piano, flaming your phone, the National Cathedral and all these world leaders were sitting sitting there in that church and was like it was almost like saying Yeah, yeah, you guys were, like, powerful in the world. But there's somebody. It's above every one of you guys and you. But you know, if we bring it down to a personal level, you were able to tell the world leaders about God. Yeah, me and Paul Balash, my son, right, is that who wrote it coated with Paul, probably actually flew in when Paul was. Paul actually lived here for a couple of years in the in the eighties and would play guitar for me every now and then in a band when I take a band out. And so we've been always remained close friends and he came into right with me and he played me about 10 ideas that he had started. They're all good ideas, but I just didn't really connect with him. We didn't see myself singing them, and I said, What else you got? It sort of got defeated. Look on his face like Lady, my message. What do you want? And, uh, he said, Well, I've got this idea I've been working on for two years and he said, I tried to write, said, I got a verse. It's really cool, but I can't right. I have been able to come up with a good chorus, and he said, I've written courses to it and actually played it in my church just didn't happen. They played me. Diverse is above all powers. Above all, kings really love that verse, that versus the same as he had, except for the very last line. Oh, really? Yeah, There's no way to mention what you're worth, which change that line he had. It's something about the Earth or something there. And so I said, Well, I love that verse. Let me see if I can come up with an idea for the chorus. So we went to bed that night, got up and wrote a song that I had started. I took him to the Christian radio station. He did an interview and we came home after lunch. And I certainly play from my idea for the course. And I played him just the rough idea that I had in my head. It's really wild. Look at his face, he said. Gosh, I just never envisioned it going that way because when you hear the verses above all kingdoms about all Thrones, you think courses automatically gonna get, say, glorious, marvelous and whose you can try to write all these terms that some have described the greatest some dog, which all fall short, and instead it goes crucified, laid behind a stone. Yeah, you lived to die, rejected and alone like a rose trampled on the ground. It took the fall and thought of me above all. And, um, you know, it's that person that those verses in Philippians where it said, you know, he became a servant he became, is a certain bond servant, and he suffered and died on the cross, came around paraphrasing it. But even though he was above everything need me Nothing for us, you know, And, uh, we would sing that line like a rose trampled on the ground. I didn't have the total chorus written that the meat of it, the meat of it. Yeah. So you're kind of changing a word here and there. You know, when we get to that line, we both start weeping. Wow. He was like, 30 minutes. It went on, Wouldn't gain, are closer, and then we start again. Soon as we get to that line, we just like both breakdown. Oh, my gosh. This went on for, like, 30 minutes in my little studio and I looked at Paul at one point. I said, Paul, I don't know when By who? Probably not me. Somebody's in here. This song, on the record, it's gonna go around the world. I just know it in my heart. I knew it that day. You knew it was that good. New knew it was that power I knew. It assures. I knew my name while and three years later is when Michael W. According it and it went around the world. It's still going around or I don't care what country I go to and I've been the most every one of them. They all know it in that. Amazing to you, I mean, does that I try to fit that inside your head. Yeah, that you can go to some country in Central Africa and something that you were. You had a part of you is known well, that one. And there's none like you are the main ones that are known any country. We go to Asia, Europe, it doesn't matter Philippines all through Africa. But to hear it's one thing to have a hit song like on the radio that's a great feeling. Make a lot of money, but to hear, to be around maybe, like we've played events in Africa have been like 600,000 people there and you're playing and you hear 600,000 people sing a song that you wrote And what what does that do to you? It makes your knees weak, First of all. Okay, but it's just overwhelming to think not that you just wrote the song that they're singing, but that song is actually a vehicle for them to make a connection to God. That's a powerful thing. Something that you wrote is helping them make it make that connection with their Lord. You know, it's just unbelievable feeling it's better than any hit record. But it also you said something earlier in the interview that this this sort of tide's altogether. You said when you started writing Christian songs, you wanted to write phones to introduce people to God. Yeah, well, you did. Yeah, in ways that, I mean, nobody ever thinks that that's gonna happen to them. Yeah, I never dreamed that I know what you could have set there and said, Hey, I'm going to write this song that is gonna have this sort of impact. Nobody does that. You told me I'd be in every country of the world and singing, and my songs will be known around the world. I say you're you're probably crazy. Yeah, let's just never dreamed that it could be that be like that. Let's just God's grace and I could actually make a living because I didn't get into it for money. Obviously, there's nobody in Christian music whatsoever, you know? And I never dreamed that I could make a living at it. And just I'm just amazing, OK? Two questions, and I'm gonna let you get on with your day. Here's the first question Who taught you the most about being a man? And what did they teach you, huh? I think on that one. You had it? Sure, sure. There's been so many great influences in my life, I think. Probably, Um probably two sources. My dad, who was from that generation. He was the one of the greatest generations. You know, he spent almost three years in the Philippines, says an infantryman well, and fought in the jungles against the Japanese invasion. And, uh, he couldn't even talk about it, you know, around us he would start weeping, and when he tried to talk about it, But three days before he died, he brought his discharge papers out and my whole band and I were doing in the vent in Daytona on he got to come in the concert and he brought his discharge papers. All the guys were sitting around the table and first time he'd ever done that. And then he also brought He had this same packet, had all these medals that we've ever seen, but you don't know anything about never seen him. Never talked about him. Never, never knew anything about him. Wow. And, uh, he was that he was a driver at one time, he had moved up to be a driver, and he was driving the offices around. They need any volunteered to drive the ammo truck. He wasn't smartest guy e, but it is what he was like, that he had no fear. My dad had no fear of anything. And he would He would drive the ammo truck up through enemy fire to the front line first thinking about bombs am Oh, yeah, that's right. And so he got an award medals for that and purple Heart and all this stuff, and we had no idea. And that day, after all my buddies left, I was out in the car and he always would stand in the driveway and I back the car out and we just stood there and wait each other in the I just stayed in the middle of street for about 20 or 30 seconds. We kept waving, and he started crying. I started crying well, and I knew that that was the last time we see him. And three days later, he died. Yeah, he died of a heart attack, I guess for something about Oh, hey, just taught me just a lot about not fearing the unknown. And I still struggle that I think everybody does. You know, Um, and the other person that was it was a big influence in my life was hindering melting. Okay, he pastor, the church that way went to further after the second year. I was a Christian, and he just taught me about just taking the stand. When you when you see something you believe in, you know God's doing doing it is not to be swayed by the people's opinions. And what is the prevailing wind? You know, that whole thing with the music when he saw a change coming, he was totally behind me. Even though while 3/4 of the church fought it, yeah, he was always behind me. He saw he saw the work of God in my life and also in the in the music, in the way God wants move. And he understood it. And he fought for it. He always made away from me, and he always backed me. He would come up, and this was when we were struggling. He would come up, and he would He would put $200 in my pocket. It wasn't the church money is his money. You know, he wasn't a wealthy man at all, but it would. He would do it so many times that I would try to avoid him after church knew what he was doing. So I didn't want him. I didn't want him to help me. You know, it was like I just never forgot that he was always in my corner and always believed in me. And, uh what, you just don't forget stuff like that, you know? All right, last question. Um, if we could. And if we can invent, we could get our own DeLorean out here, Toby. Our time machine, and we could stick you in it. And we could send you back where you could have a talk with 18 year old Leaney. What would you tell him? Oh, man, so much. Ah, I don't know. I wouldn't know where to start. It just be so many things I would like to to do differently. Cut. You know, I think everyone would say that There's a lot of that I wouldn't change. Okay. You know, But I think probably the first thing I'd say it was You need toe to seek God and seek to know God because everything else will unfold for you. You won't have a perfect life, but you'll have a life that it really has meaning to it in depth. And you won't be so moved by superficial things and material. Things would be your goal. You'll discover the deeper things in life. Yeah. What? What's one thing you wouldn't change? Um, I wouldn't change my my musical upbringing. Okay, Because that's just that's part of my story. And I don't I don't discredit it. I don't feel sorry about it. I'm glad I went through those things that I went through. I'm glad I met the people I met because they had a real influence on my life and made a remark in my life and development as a musician and as a person. So I'm thankful for my relationship with Pete in my relationship with all the studio owners and producers and singers and songwriters that I work with. They just taught me so much, one in particular. Barry Beckett, which a Heat was a huge musical influence on me. He was. It must show sound. He was more of the principles of that studio and produced all the big late records. They're all the bombs, the young Bob Dylan Records and, Gosh, A pretty stellar McClinton while and produced leave on hymns, record and tons of records he produced. You know he was so knowledgeable and a new songs and we were being a staff writer with civil or other people, friends of mine there we write songs and try to write for songs, songs for their artists he was bringing in. And so one week it might be one artist, so we try to write a song for that artist. That's a tough thing to Dio really your genre and you try to write something for somebody else, but he would just tell us needs this right here you need a lift in the chorus. The melody is not lifting up hiring me. He just taught me so much. Just the skill set is the skill set. Oh my gosh, I owe so much to him she could put together and in a way a few years ago, What a what a talent

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leading man for you. Thanks again, Delaney. I listen to it in total while I was doing the editing and for gotten some of the stories and was just entertained again. But I was also inspired again by Lenny, his commitment to his faith and to see how he understood that Sometimes when you are called to make a sacrifice, you don't always know how it's gonna work out. And sometimes it doesn't work out like it does in the movie immediately. And that's just a great lesson for all of us to learn its men. And so thanks for listing on. We'll see you next time